In the spirit of 'vote early, vote often' and having just finished Oren Kessler's Palestine 1936 (which seemed to me to be very good), I'd be interested to learn more about Moshe Shertok.
I'd like to know more about the doomsayer tradition in late 19th / early 20th c. Jewish thought, especially the people who saw it really early like Moses Hess because I always got the impression that at some point the early callers were lucky guessers more than they were correct.
He’s Not a Zionist, but would be interested to hear your thoughts on Isaac Nachman Steinberg and his attempts to have Jews settle in Suriname and Australia.
All great projects are primarily the work of crazies and romantics. The same can be said of America’s pilgrim fathers or of Garibaldi in Italy. Zionism managed to harness an incredible burst of vitality and creativity, like a great spirit, and create substance out of nothingness and chaos. And now there is a state and the state has a mythology, and a past both real and romanticized, and all kinds of formation challenges that time and ingenuity will eventually resolve.
It took the Saxon conquest several centuries to fully settle and then the Norman conquest several centuries more. Zion is still forming.
Do we really think that if the Jews had settled in Uganda that things would have developed much differently? I wager we would have found ourselves in a South Africa like predicament in short order.
I think that there are range of possible outcomes, from success to complete failure, but what I mainly think is that if things had started going tits up, they would have backed off and moved the Jews there to somewhere safer. The debate about Uganda was fundamentally about whether the goal of the Zionist movement was to use the resources at its disposal to relocate as many Jews as possible to places where they could flourish better, or sink everything into gambling on Eretz Yisrael. I have various issues with how things turned out, but what I am asking for, first of all, is that we can start being honest about what happened.
I know this nearly a year old, but I’ve only recently discovered it. In “they would have backed off and moved the Jews…” who is “they,” where would they have moved the Jews to, why should we think they would have had where to move the Jews, why should we think they would’ve moved the Jews in time?
I love your honesty about how things turned out. But I’m not convinced that territorialism was ever a viable alternative to Zionism. As a thought experiment that brings out the craziness of Zionism, sure, we can wonder if it would have been better for the Jews to establish a state somewhere that didn’t have people who were bound to hate and try to kill them and who, if kicked out, would continue to try to kill the Jews from a little further away. But that doesn’t mean that someone awaiting a slow death in a DP camp in Germany in 1949 could have held out for a spot somewhere in Africa or Australia that maybe, just maybe, would’ve worked out better or with less cringe aesthetics, or less pollution, or better architecture.
Why not focus more energy on what can be done now. How can we institute a reverse Aliya for the Palestinians. "Operation Solomon" inverted. it should be done in emergency fashion "to prevent the imminent starvation of millions of innocent Palestinian refugees. Once its done Israel can face all the world pressure and maybe even cancelation from the UN for a few years. Like building a house without permits. it has its advantages. We have to disabuse ourselves of the notion of 'what is right" at this point. its a matter of survival. We would have loved to have been given the Exile Option in Europe instead we were exterminated. They need to be airlifted for their own safety. Uganda, Madagascar. all those places. Able bodied men first followed by women and children.
I do a mix of retrospective and present-focused material. The reality is that a permanent solution for the Palestinians can only be implemented by by people with a genuine interest in their wellbeing (it can be for ulterior motives, but it has to be real). Israelis can't do it because they hate them too much. Who can do it? Probably no-one, so things will continue.
I see I am having some influence regarding the Palestinians are Jews thing. Israeli society seriously has to grapple with this. Most importantly should there be at least some modicum of effort to israellify them? A parallel to Russification.
I don't think this is in any way a possibility without a radical change of political conditions. Israeli society will not grapple with this, but it will hopefully take the wind out of the Right's sails before they get us all killed.
In the spirit of 'vote early, vote often' and having just finished Oren Kessler's Palestine 1936 (which seemed to me to be very good), I'd be interested to learn more about Moshe Shertok.
I'd like to know more about the doomsayer tradition in late 19th / early 20th c. Jewish thought, especially the people who saw it really early like Moses Hess because I always got the impression that at some point the early callers were lucky guessers more than they were correct.
He’s Not a Zionist, but would be interested to hear your thoughts on Isaac Nachman Steinberg and his attempts to have Jews settle in Suriname and Australia.
All great projects are primarily the work of crazies and romantics. The same can be said of America’s pilgrim fathers or of Garibaldi in Italy. Zionism managed to harness an incredible burst of vitality and creativity, like a great spirit, and create substance out of nothingness and chaos. And now there is a state and the state has a mythology, and a past both real and romanticized, and all kinds of formation challenges that time and ingenuity will eventually resolve.
It took the Saxon conquest several centuries to fully settle and then the Norman conquest several centuries more. Zion is still forming.
"Zionism managed to harness an incredible burst of vitality and creativity, like a great spirit, and create substance out of nothingness and chaos."
I agree with this. I'm not an anti-Zionist.
I recommend a diet of Rachel the Poetess and Naomi Shemer songs. Then you'll kinda get the whole thing.
Do we really think that if the Jews had settled in Uganda that things would have developed much differently? I wager we would have found ourselves in a South Africa like predicament in short order.
I think that there are range of possible outcomes, from success to complete failure, but what I mainly think is that if things had started going tits up, they would have backed off and moved the Jews there to somewhere safer. The debate about Uganda was fundamentally about whether the goal of the Zionist movement was to use the resources at its disposal to relocate as many Jews as possible to places where they could flourish better, or sink everything into gambling on Eretz Yisrael. I have various issues with how things turned out, but what I am asking for, first of all, is that we can start being honest about what happened.
I know this nearly a year old, but I’ve only recently discovered it. In “they would have backed off and moved the Jews…” who is “they,” where would they have moved the Jews to, why should we think they would have had where to move the Jews, why should we think they would’ve moved the Jews in time?
I love your honesty about how things turned out. But I’m not convinced that territorialism was ever a viable alternative to Zionism. As a thought experiment that brings out the craziness of Zionism, sure, we can wonder if it would have been better for the Jews to establish a state somewhere that didn’t have people who were bound to hate and try to kill them and who, if kicked out, would continue to try to kill the Jews from a little further away. But that doesn’t mean that someone awaiting a slow death in a DP camp in Germany in 1949 could have held out for a spot somewhere in Africa or Australia that maybe, just maybe, would’ve worked out better or with less cringe aesthetics, or less pollution, or better architecture.
What would you say would have been the ideal place to go if political considerations weren't an issue?
Why not focus more energy on what can be done now. How can we institute a reverse Aliya for the Palestinians. "Operation Solomon" inverted. it should be done in emergency fashion "to prevent the imminent starvation of millions of innocent Palestinian refugees. Once its done Israel can face all the world pressure and maybe even cancelation from the UN for a few years. Like building a house without permits. it has its advantages. We have to disabuse ourselves of the notion of 'what is right" at this point. its a matter of survival. We would have loved to have been given the Exile Option in Europe instead we were exterminated. They need to be airlifted for their own safety. Uganda, Madagascar. all those places. Able bodied men first followed by women and children.
I do a mix of retrospective and present-focused material. The reality is that a permanent solution for the Palestinians can only be implemented by by people with a genuine interest in their wellbeing (it can be for ulterior motives, but it has to be real). Israelis can't do it because they hate them too much. Who can do it? Probably no-one, so things will continue.
The sooner humanity gets into space, the sooner we can implement space homelands and be done with this.
I see I am having some influence regarding the Palestinians are Jews thing. Israeli society seriously has to grapple with this. Most importantly should there be at least some modicum of effort to israellify them? A parallel to Russification.
I don't think this is in any way a possibility without a radical change of political conditions. Israeli society will not grapple with this, but it will hopefully take the wind out of the Right's sails before they get us all killed.
1. Best books on Zionist schisms?
2. You really hate how Israelis dress. I've always found it kind of charming. But it's a fair point
I think the 3 books by David Vital are very good: 'The Origins of Zionism', 'Zionism: The Formative Years', 'Zionism: the Crucial Years'.